<nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic, politics:, left-wing, f

I think it kind of broke the ice to the lack of critical thinking and CARE here in this thread ( thx Ingrid ) which entails many crucial topics for our present and future, whereby a pandemic crisis is only like one large and worrisome wart on the ass of an out-of-control transnational ecocidal + hyper-crapitalist regime (-change ) that threatens the lives and well-being of 7.9 Billion people on our ONLY inhabitable planet.

Luca's short and concise post presents an easy-to-read case in the field. A whole lot of distrust and a real-life and to-the-point scenario, as opposed to the endlessly over-mediated and assured, snappy cubicle-lens diagnosis ( of complex and multi-faceted issues ) which can too often include the frantic jockeying for positions of authority, maintaining orders + control + "main frames".

In the midst all these contagious "info and psycho-spheres" ( borrowing from Bifo's latest book The Third Unconscious ) and their outbreaks of diverse, contradictory and conflicting versions of all our immediate social ailments, and our rational and irrational fears, we need to come together ( and preferably beyond the digital shrinkwrappings ) to analyze and organize, so that our communities will be stronger in coping with and/or defending ourselves against the current crises... and the next symptoms, the next threats to our health ( and h. care systems), the next power grabs, the next authoritarianism, the next siege, the next racist schemes, the next divide + conquer strategies, the next flailings of humanity, the next bombardment of vested interests pumped through those toxic corporate media gates, etc.

I personally do not think Luca's questions and concerns of his and his 20+ family members should be so easily ( and so poorly ) dismissed, unanswered, deflected, buried, or silenced !

I, for one, am deeply interested in what kind of debates and sharing of information, perspectives, resources and potential mobilizations can come from such a timely academic conference and setting !

one should expect to have a loooong growing list of topics, discussions and reflections on pandemic politics...

And especially since EU and North American politics still consistently and spectacularly FLAIL to reign in ( and repair ) its environmental, economic and technological terrors festering upon the rest of the world.

I have already clashed with Carlo on another list, and we have many disagreements. So i will not get into specifics here. But in the spirit of comraderie and good humor....

i will just suggest to reflect a little deeper in regards to our "techno-scientific modernity" ( and ongoing techno-colonialism ) that have at times created a few useful things and remedies, while simultaneous pushing our whole planetary existence to THE BRINK OF TOTAL ECO-COLLAPSE ... It might be a good idea to curb your enthusiasm for techno-fix-solutionism in whatever crises undoubtedly unfold next !

And if any of you have managed to filter out all the industrialized Big Science-aided calamities of the past decades, and any of you think there are NO scandals, scams, nor actual criminal-krapitalist conspiracies occurring today within our Health Care Systems, Big Pharma, and all those Billionaire feudal-futurist platform invasions, etc. ... in these treacherous and troubles times ...

And you think the mostly neoliberal state govts are actually doing a fantastic job to protect and assist people in these crises times...

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic, politics:,
      left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques (Luca Barbeni)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 08:58:38 +0100
From: Luca Barbeni <luca@island8081.com>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic,
	politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques
Message-ID: e6f6feb8-1eb4-adad-1b4c-2d9e91913bf1@island8081.com"><e6f6feb8-1eb4-adad-1b4c-2d9e91913bf1@island8081.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Thanks Carlo
for the comprehensive answer,
I agree that "We need to seek collective freedoms and
collective rationality", quite difficult today,
I'm just surprised how secure are pro vax about their positions
while it's always important to doubt, particularly in science,
while today there's no space for doubt.

I think another problem of this pandemic was that there was  "too much 
science"
and "way too much info/disinfo" on both sides.
By "too much science" I mean that the idea to control or to suppress 
this kind of virus
is a lost battle since the beginning, I'd rather have focused on cures 
than vaccine,
(see Nimesulide), protecting the fragile and strengthening the health 
department.
With all the effort we did the pandemic will go away after 2 years as 
every previous pandemic, with or without vaccines.

About the consensus, I theoretically agree, but today consensus is also 
driven by market forces that doesn't care about health, see the farcical 
show of experts on Italian tv,
everyone grabbing his 15 minutes of fame...


best,
Luca



On 05/02/2022 02:17, nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

    1. Re: CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:,
       left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques (Luca Barbeni)
    2. Re: science wars replace culture wars as new divider in
       contemp politics (Alex Foti)
    3. Re: science wars replace culture wars as new divider in
       contemp politics (carlo von lynX)
    4. Re: CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic politics:,
       left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques (carlo von lynX)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 13:25:55 +0100
From: Luca Barbeni <luca@island8081.com>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic
	politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques
Message-ID: 8191b538-9e64-fa3a-8b16-fc0d6ac443f6@island8081.com"><8191b538-9e64-fa3a-8b16-fc0d6ac443f6@island8081.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hi to everyone,
I don't write frequently on the list but I'm pretty tired of the
association of provax with science vs novax against science.
I'm definitively against the vaccine mandate and strongly against the pass.
In Italy I know people with the pass that were positive but because they
had the pass
they took an airplane... and you tell me the pass is a solution?

I don't believe these measures because I trust science,
and pharmaceutical science until before the pandemic was based on
cautionary principle
that has been thrown in the bin.

If the vaccine is working so well why do we still have 400 dead by day
in Italy?
I agree the vaccine for elderly but a mandate for everyone doesn't make
any sense
when the average age of death is 82.
and BTW people are dying because badly cured,
in Italy we're still relying on a protocol based on "paracetamol and
watchful waiting"
that's only killing people
and that's what science says.


On 22/01/2022 12:00, nettime-l-request@mail.kein.org wrote:

"Moral shaming" is an appropriate
measure considering that vaccine deniers are causing
problems we otherwise wouldn't be having - and they
are causing deaths.

That's really not the case, we still have "problems" because Omicron
doesn't care at all about the vaccine
and by the way all my family isn't vaccinated, more than 20 people,
everyone got it in January and it was less severe that a flu, also my
parents who are over 70 and not vaccinated.

Young people is dying less not for the vaccine but because the virus is
milder...
and btw you'll never know if vaccinated people got it milder because of
the vaccine or not becasue there's no control group...

In my humble experience I only know people who got Covid without any problem
while I know people who got severe problems from the vaccine, but
perhaps I'm unfortunate...

BTW I'm vaccinated because unless I couldn't work.

so please stop to make an equation between vaccine and science that
doesn't make any sense.
Do you want to have a vaccine, please do it
but don't blame the no vax
rather the state that should build new hospital, more beds, raise the
paycheck to nurses
rather giving billions to pharmaceutical companies

This war between vax and novax has been created in order to divide us,
the longtime classic "divide et impera"...

luca


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 16:08:20 +0100
From: Alex Foti <alex.foti@gmail.com>
To: Jos? Mar?a Mateos <chema@rinzewind.org>
Cc: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> science wars replace culture wars as new
	divider in contemp politics
Message-ID:
	CAA0Kfmm_Neb23+4eCL82jQKJit7YDgMO4Nzt-6Yc7Cs63940UA@mail.gmail.com"><CAA0Kfmm_Neb23+4eCL82jQKJit7YDgMO4Nzt-6Yc7Cs63940UA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

thanks for your critical remarks. true the fascist cancer hasn't spared
neither spain nor portugal, but it seems to me that they are not attracting
large numbers of people from other sectors of society as it happens in the
rest of continental europe (and canada!) with no vax movements.

best ciaos,

alex

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 3:24 PM Jos? Mar?a Mateos <chema@rinzewind.org>
wrote:

On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 10:22:37AM +0000, Andre Rangel wrote:

Hi Alex,

Thank you for your text. Just a minor correction.

Unfortunately. In Portugal, the extreme right ?Chega? was the third most

voted in the last election (7.15% of the votes). In Spain Vox is the
political umbrela for Francoism/Nazi/Nationalist movements. Vox is
connected with Chega. Unfortunately.

I was going to reply to this too. Yes, in Spain Vox is also quite
representative of the anti-vax movement. Santiago Abascal, its leader,
has refused to say whether he's vaccinated or not:
https://cadenaser-com.translate.goog/ser/2021/09/18/sociedad/1631954620_782993.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

This is party that is managing to attract everything that's fringe on
the right and extreme right. One of its representatives in parliament
tweeted "Trust the plan" on Jan 7th 2021:
https://twitter.com/Macarena_Olona/status/1347341468218888192?s=20

Cheers,

--
Jos? Mar?a (Chema) Mateos || https://rinzewind.org
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2022 19:17:46 +0100
From: carlo von lynX <lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org>
To: nettime-l@kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> science wars replace culture wars as new
	divider in contemp politics
Message-ID: 20220204181746.GA28317@lo.psyced.org"><20220204181746.GA28317@lo.psyced.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, Feb 03, 2022 at 09:22:45AM +0100, Alex Foti wrote:

let's win the science wars to prevail in the climate and class struggles,

Yes, please.
Thank you for emphasising the issue of science in all of this.

TL;DR:
   How big is the impact of culturally accepted anti-science
   and will this new awareness also help focus on that?

A crazy optimistic thought of mine: what if a new attention
towards fact-orientedness and science in the reasonable
majorities of society suddenly helps unveil other areas of
political thought, where anti-science has been commonly
accepted for decades?

What if these developments bring about a new honest look at
otherwise ideology-driven political movements like the
"economic sciences", "conservative" political parties who
praise free markets while ignoring that the markets haven't
been free for quite a while now?

Each time I hear "conservative" or "liberal" leaders like
FDP's Lindner spew out populist el-cheapo phrases like "no
raise in taxes" when taxes, applied to the right people,
are absolutely essential in achieving sustainable existence
of the human species, it makes me worry about the intelli-
gence of voters. And then they interview some student who
says he voted for FDP because saving the planet is impor-
tant but to him it matters more that no speed limit is
introduced on highways.

The science vs ideology vs radicalisation wars, are they
about Internet desinformation? Or are they about stupidity?
Or about lack of empathy and care? Who cares about future
generations if even many of today's kids don't?

Anyway, I wish us luck.

What were the culture wars actually? Fighting over ideologies
while more or less accepting facts to be facts and science
to be science? Well, then maybe it is good that the disrespect
of science in large chunks of the political spectrum becomes
more visible - not just those parts of anti-science that are
not acceptable culturally.

P.S. Another example of culturally widely accepted anti-
      science: The microwave oven scare.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 02:17:11 +0100
From: carlo von lynX <lynX@time.to.get.psyced.org>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> CfP: Critical reflections on pandemic
	politics:, left-wing, feminist and anti-racist critiques
Message-ID: 20220205011711.GA22242@lo.psyced.org"><20220205011711.GA22242@lo.psyced.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

No-one has replied to this one, so I'll carefully try to do so.
After all it happens to be a reply to a post of mine.

On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 01:25:55PM +0100, Luca Barbeni wrote:

Hi to everyone,
I don't write frequently on the list but I'm pretty tired of the
association of provax with science vs novax against science.
I'm definitively against the vaccine mandate and strongly against the pass.
In Italy I know people with the pass that were positive but because
they had the pass
they took an airplane... and you tell me the pass is a solution?

In fact Italian airports are among the ones doing a not so bad
job. At least they still check for body temperature which I
haven't seen happening in many other places.

Recently in various airports I have been asked to prompt my
vaccination QR code or the printed lines below it, but never
has anyone actually checked whether the QR code actually comes
with any valid digital signature, making the whole "green pass"
infrastructure apparently pointless.

As I asked the employee why she would not use the "CoronaCheck
Scanner" app (which is even available from F-Droid, like all
governmental apps should) to ensure my colour-printed sheet
of paper is actually legit (and not signed by a rogue pharmacy
for example, or entirely made up), she just said the airways
aren't getting paid to do governmental jobs.

So what's the deal with governments not being very precise and
serious about checking the rules they make? Well, I presume it
has to do with epidemiology: It is not important to intercept
*every* single case and to be super strict with everyone as
long as the large majority of population respects the rules
and thus slows down the spread of the epidemics.

And apparently that strategy has worked out. We are about to
get out of the covid tunnel.

I don't believe these measures because I trust science,
and pharmaceutical science until before the pandemic was based on
cautionary principle
that has been thrown in the bin.

Strangely however, your conclusion doesn't sound very scientific,
it sounds like you trust your own understanding of science better
than what the scientific consensus would say - but the point in
being science-based is to not follow a single person's opinion
or even scientific evaluation, but rather to seek the consensus.

If the vaccine is working so well why do we still have 400 dead by
day in Italy?

If people weren't vaccinated, then either Italy would still be in
a real lockdown, or the numbers of people dying would be some
hundredfold higher - simply because the hospitals wouldn't keep up.
The vaccine, the masks, the distancing have tamed the exponential
growth of the malady. The illness still kills people, but a lot
less than it could have killed, had we been less rational.

I agree the vaccine for elderly but a mandate for everyone doesn't
make any sense
when the average age of death is 82.

That average is so high *because* the hospitals are keeping up.
We have seen in many countries with unreasonable political
leadership how hospitals got overrun with the consequence of
getting a spike in young deaths which could have been avoided
if they hadn't all gotten infected *at the same time* and in
such high numbers.

By vaccinating all of the population, young people do not crowd the
hospitals, allowing hospitals to do their best for the elderly
which are still at risk of dying.

and BTW people are dying because badly cured,
in Italy we're still relying on a protocol based on "paracetamol and
watchful waiting"
that's only killing people
and that's what science says.

I don't know where you have your science from, but the
scientific consensus that I have been following speaks
differently.

That's really not the case, we still have "problems" because Omicron
doesn't care at all about the vaccine

That is incorrect.

and by the way all my family isn't vaccinated, more than 20 people,
everyone got it in January and it was less severe that a flu, also
my parents who are over 70 and not vaccinated.

Glad you like Russian roulette, but your behaviour has nothing to do
with science.

Young people is dying less not for the vaccine but because the virus
is milder...

But that is still a guess, not a scientific certainty. So your
entire family has been at risk for over a year of getting the
nastier variants of the virus? You call that reasonable? Also,
since it is scientifically clear that there is nothing wrong
with the vaccine, what was the point in taking a risk? Maybe
you aren't actually behaving in a scientifically solid way by
supporting some irrational doubts about the vaccines?

and btw you'll never know if vaccinated people got it milder because
of the vaccine or not becasue there's no control group...

Then why are the hospitals mostly crowded by non-vaccinated
persons, some of them pretty young? Where do you get your
facts and science from?

In my humble experience I only know people who got Covid without any problem
while I know people who got severe problems from the vaccine, but
perhaps I'm unfortunate...

Yes, indeed, because you are confusing science with anecdotical
observations. There are young unvaccinated people occupying
hospital beds needlessly, and there are people who experience
side effects of the vaccine because they are afraid of it -
not because any of those effects are caused by the vaccine
itself. Here's the Harvard study in that regard:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/jan/18/nocebo-effect-two-thirds-of-covid-jab-reactions-not-caused-by-vaccine-study-suggests
https://hms.harvard.edu/news/power-placebo

2/3 of vaccination side effects only exist in the mind!
Considering that many people experience real pains in their
arms after getting a jab, it is surreal that patients have
been reporting more paranoid pains than real ones. This is
illustrating once more how humans are unable to think
rationally on these matters.

If you are an informed science-oriented person, did your
information channels let you know about this new scientific
fact? Maybe they didn't because they are moderated with the
habit of censoring any science that doesn't fit the agenda
of the moderator? Try posting these links in your favourite
covid chatroom and see if they get removed...

BTW I'm vaccinated because unless I couldn't work.

Some governmental measures are designed to save lives.

so please stop to make an equation between vaccine and science that
doesn't make any sense.
Do you want to have a vaccine, please do it
but don't blame the no vax
rather the state that should build new hospital, more beds, raise
the paycheck to nurses
rather giving billions to pharmaceutical companies

You're not being scientific. Vaccination is the only realistic
and scientific way to address this virus - medicines are only
about to enter the market *now* and there is no number of
hospitals that would be able to manage an exponentially
growing epidemic going through the roof.

Always in favour of raising nurses' paychecks and de-privatising
hospitals, but it would not address the covid emergency.

This war between vax and novax has been created in order to divide us,
the longtime classic "divide et impera"...

No. Politicians had hoped that everybody would be rational and
acting reasonable. Instead a number of people has chosen to get
manipulated by anti-scientific political forces on the Internet,
suggesting there could be something wrong about the only possible
remedy against the virus. Bad luck for the politicians acting in
such a liberal way. In the meantime science has found out that a
strong mandate would have worked better, psychologically:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/11/vaccine-hesitancy-psychology-regret/

"Anticipated regret sheds light on why vaccine-hesitant people seem more comfortable taking their chances with the virus rather than getting the shot, a decision that is not rational given the relative likelihood of experiencing severe effects of covid-19 vs. severe vaccine side effects. [?] When people don?t feel the weight of making their own choice, they aren?t as tormented by the anticipated negative outcomes of their decision. Mandates externalize responsibility for getting vaccinated ? shifting it from the self to others ? making it easier to go forward with getting a shot."

I know this scientific evidence is a hard hit to anyone
who believes in individual freedom ideologies. The problem
in those ideologies is that Cartesian individual rationality
has been proven wrong long time ago, which to me makes it
likely that individual freedoms are also psychosocially
wrong. It is wrong to ask an individual whether they agree
on giving away their data to a behemoth (GDPR) just as it
is wrong to expect an individual to grasp the long-term
consequences and therefore stop smoking, eating sugars etc.
It's even wronger to ask individuals to change their habits
to save the planet, because by doing so you are denying the
science we have about human psychology! I wished we could go
that way, but science has slapped these ideologic approaches
in our face. We need to seek collective freedoms and
collective rationality. The latter is what should
distinguish us from the Chinese approach.

P.S. I try to base everything I say on scientific consensus
and evidence. If you plan to reply to this mail, please do
not just throw science-rejecting opinions at me, but rather
provide solid evidence and facts that prove me wrong.
Thank you.

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